The Lifelong Benefits of Uprooting and Moving to Santa Fe, with Katie Arnold

Katie Arnold Ep Draft

Paddy: [00:00:00] COLD OPEN

Katie: I should have said already that I'd never set foot in the state of New Mexico before. I have no idea. So my, my boyfriend is like, it's gonna be the brownest thing ever. It's so brown. And we turned the corner like off of I 40 we got like 40 miles to Santa Fe.

And I was like, it's really green because it's all the evergreen, it's all the juniper and pinon.

Paddy: Yeah.

Katie: And I was like, this isn't that brown.

Paddy: Shut your face brown.

That's the

Katie: shut your face. Yeah, but

Paddy: face. Stupid old boyfriend.

Katie: so I was really pleasantly surprised. I never felt landscape shock of like, what is this? Instead I felt, immediately like it was the place I was supposed to be and

Paddy: why do you think that is .

Katie: I think in 2026 that the year we're in language, it would be like, it was a nervous system reset, you know?

Paddy: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Nice,

Katie: But at the time

Paddy: in 95, what are we saying?

Katie: 95. It's just like, oh. It was like I could breathe, I could see a [00:01:00] long way. I felt very small in a good way. Like the land was so big around me, like it enveloped me

Paddy: MUSIC

PADDYO VO:

I’ve been obsessed with origin stories for my entire life. I think it started when, as a kid, I was introduced to four turtles who were transformed by radioactive ooze and a talking rat into crime-fighting martial arts experts, each inspired by a different Renaissance genius. Dismiss the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles if you must, but what I loved about them— and what I love about any origin story—is that, when you know a character’s beginnings, you become emotionally invested in them. It makes them real and relatable and human; not some hero in a halfshell placed on a pedestal. And that genesis is where meaning attaches to individuals.

When I moved out West to try and make a home in the mountains of Colorado, I quickly learned [00:02:00] that nearly everyone I met had some kind of fascinating origin story. None of them wore masks or knew ninjitsu (except on closing day at the ski hill), but their stories always illuminated who they were, and how and why they became who they are. Learning these stories enriched my own, because it helped me learn how to tell tales and explicate their meaning.

Now I can spin a decent yarn; I can even yap an entertaining one about my own origin story, but I’m not going to do that today. Because, today, I’m talking to a far better yarn-spinner than myself, with an infinitely more interesting origin story. That of writer and runner Katie Arnold.

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Katie Arnold is an award winning writer and elite endurance runner. Her critically-acclaimed memoir, Running Home, details her lifelong passion for running and how she used the sport to work through grief [00:03:00] after the death of her father. Katie is the 2018 women's champion of the world-renowned Leadville Trail 100 mile ultra, which she won with one of the fastest times in the event’s history. Even more impressive is that she ran it just two years after suffering a catastrophic rafting accident that resulted in a leg fracture and knee injury so severe, doctors thought she'd never run again. That journey, and how it intersected with her growing devotion to Zen Buddhism, is the subject of her second book, Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World.

Katie's life has become a unique entry into the  weird and wild world of the Mountain West, no doubt. But the beginning of her story starts from a relatable place. It involves a woman in her early 20s trying to figure out adulthood with an unsatisfying job in the big city and an unspecified yearning for, not [00:04:00] just something else, but someWHERE else.

For Katie, that somewhere was Santa Fe, a place she wound up kinda sorta by luck and kinda sorta because it was clearly destiny. Either way, her life has become synonymous with this distinct and vibrant city at the tail of the Rockies, where indigenous, Spanish, and pioneer cultures have co-existed in a shifting alliance with mountains, deserts, and the ineffable for hundreds of years.

So, how does a knobby kneed kid from New Jersey who loved running down to the park and figured she’d marry an investment banker in New York City wind up a Zen Buddhist ultrarunner in a community of artists, shamans, and outdoor enthusiasts? Well that, friends, is a story better than any Ninja Turtle tale and one you gotta hear to believe. Cowabunga, dudes!

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​First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment? Outside.

Katie: I was skinning [00:05:00] up on a little backcountry tour up a very, you know, gentle slope. And I have a young puppy who I'm learning, teaching him how to ski, right? So he doesn't get caught in the edges.

and so I was going uphill feeling, you know, like heart rate up. this is good, I'm getting my workout in. And I just tripped, on my own skis going uphill. It was like one foot went over the other like fully crossed tips. And I. Just face planted and the do, and it was like slow motion for some reason.

Slow motion uphill falling, which I have done in running quite a bit. You know, not a lot,

Paddy: yeah. but sure.

Katie: it's harder. It's somehow, 'cause I think you're not expecting it. You're like, I'm not gonna fall, I'm going uphill. And then you just bite it. And also it's just the sting of embarrassment and like no one was around

Paddy: but it's like, you still feel like somebody's watching.

Katie: someone's watching. And the

Paddy: that person is me I'm watching me and I

hate me for this.

Katie: and it, it was. Terrible too, because I couldn't, you know, you think, oh, I'm just on my little back. I'm on my skimo skis, which are stupidly light

Paddy: Yeah. Totally.

Katie: you should be able to pop right [00:06:00] up. Well, for some reason, no, it was very awkward the way I fell. And like I was in a tangle and the dogs came and they, they did, they were very empathetic.

'cause they stick their nose in mine and they're like, what are you doing on the ground? What is wrong with this

Paddy: wrong with your limbs?

Katie: So that was, I mean, I've had a lot of things, you know, but that's the most recent I've peed on poison ivy. You know, I've done all the things,

Paddy: I feel like, that's a story that I want hear about, but I

also don't wanna hear about same

Katie: Yeah. Uh, just dear listeners, it's a cautionary tale. Don't, don't squat so low that there's any kind of touching. Take it from me.

Paddy: Leaves of three.

Do not pee.

Katie: Pros, they're just like

Paddy: Yes. Yes. famous writers and elite athletes, they're just like us.

Katie: Just like us.

Paddy: Thank you for that. All right, let's get into it.

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I wanna start things off by playing like a little bit of a game

with you since you're such a wonderful storyteller, [00:07:00] I want you to go back to your early twenties and set the scene for us. Narrate your life back in New Jersey as

if it's a movie. What are you doing? Who are you spending your time with? Where are you working? What is the conflict?

Katie: Okay. This is actually taking place in New York City, Manhattan. I have just graduated from college, wanted to go into book publishing and I got a job. I was working at Little Brown Book Publishers , at Rockefeller Center, 50th and Sixth Sweet Job.

But I was a publicist, right? And so I really wanted to get into editorial because I'm a writer and you know, all that. But I was a book publicist, so I was responsible for, booking all of these media tours for famous and not so famous authors. So, back in the day, in the nineties, this was 93. It meant a lot of calling, right?

Like just picking up the phone and you'd be calling like the noon news in Des Moines or you'd be calling like KR whatever in St. Louis and being like, so and so my author is coming to town, would you like to book them? That [00:08:00] theoretically should have been easy, but I was not great at selling. I didn't love to sell things. I didn't love to call and I had my pitch. So like, I hope my old boss is not listening to this. She was amazing. But like I would have my pitch written out and I would have my call sheet and nothing made me happier than when I got someone's voicemail and I could just read it.

I could just read it and be like, call me back if you're interested in booking so and

Paddy: yeah, yeah, yeah,

Katie: And then I could just do that, check mark next to thing and be like, I made the calls. Um, I'm living in like an 800 square foot studio apartment on the Upper East side. Um, I'm walking to and from work like 30 blocks through the park.

That was what kept me sane. I really struggled in New York because all I was trying to do was get out of the city, which does not make actually living in the city. Very fun.

Paddy: Yeah.

Katie: Right. I had, I did not have my Zen mindset. I was just always trying to leave. I had a boyfriend who had a place in the Adirondacks and we would go up there all the time.

And basically the only memory I have of that besides walking to and from my office through [00:09:00] Central Park was like being in Port Authority at like 11:00 PM on a Sunday night. Like every Sunday coming back in from wherever and just being like, shit, I have to start this over.

Like all of the weekend that I just got in nature and wilderness just drained out of me on this bus ride.

Paddy: Okay. Awesome. This is great. That's the conflict. Okay,

Katie: Dun, dun dun. So I'm fighting with New York

Paddy: so now still as that narrator,

can you please describe your Go West Young Woman moment?

Katie: Yes. Okay. So my Go West young moment. Was actually came from my stepfather. He's the best. And he read one day in the Wall Street Journal, right. 'cause he was the, investment banker on Wall Street. Always had that. He saw some tiny blurb that was like outside magazine relocating from Chicago to Santa Fe.

I had subscribed to outside all through high school. Like, it was back in the day when , like there were no bicycle helmets on anybody. And everyone wore fuchsia and teal and you, you know, you get the picture. And [00:10:00] my stepfather saw this and, in my memory, I think I was there with him and he kind of did that, like tearing it out and like giving me this tiny blurb to be

Paddy: is so cinematic. I can see

this.

Katie: be like, do with it what you will.

And I like was touched in a way because, you know, I didn't think he was paying attention, right? Like kids back then, teenagers in the eighties, like. You just as long as you're alive, like you're doing well. Like parents weren't really invested in their kids' futures. They weren't micromanaging. So the fact that he even did that was like, whoa, I feel so seen.

Paddy: Yeah, yeah.

Katie: Some months passed, you know? And I was becoming more and more restless with New York at the same time that I was doing some pretty cool stuff at my job. Like I took David Sedaris down to Miami on book tour.

He was at the Miami Book Fair? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there were some fun moments.

Paddy: That sounds like a very fun moment.

Katie: Yeah, so there were some fun moments, but I knew I, you know, I'd like one foot out the door forever since I was like always trying to get out and [00:11:00] then I think just one winter day I sent in like a resume and an application to be an intern.

the then managing editor called me he is like, can you start July 1st?

And I was like, yes.

this was probably April or May,

Paddy: my God.

Katie: so can you start July 1st? And I didn't even miss a beat Paddy. I was that was the fullest body. Yes. I've had like, since probably my wedding

Paddy: So this was just kind of like the match on the cannon from New York City towards

the west. Like you were just like, my stuff is packed. I'm ready to go.

I just need somebody to tell me where to point this cannon and I'm,

you know, blast off

Katie: But at the same time it was super focused. Like I had not put in applications other places, It just felt like it was meant to be because I was that subscriber, you know? And you're like, you're like, I subscribe. I must be like, meant to work there. You know? That's,

Paddy: I have

Katie: that's a mad that

Paddy: need to work there.

Katie: Yeah, obviously.

I [00:12:00] mean, can't anyone see it?

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Paddy: so you launch yourself into Santa Fe. What did it feel like when you arrived? Were you nervous? were you excited? Did it feel like a wide open opportunity? Was

it daunting?

Katie: I should say like after I said yes, like blurted out Yes. On the phone I hung up and I was like, oh crap, I have like a full-time paying job, full benefits, climbing the ladder in book publishing land. So I did have a moment of like, oh no, what have I done? , you know, you're an intern.

No benefits. I think I was gonna make $5 an hour,

Paddy: Jesus.

Katie: let let that sit in $5 an hour. And so, um, but I, you know, once I said yes and I told my parents, 'cause that's a big hurdle when you're 23, right? As you're like, Hey, I'm doing this thing.

Paddy: Yeah. Hey, I'm doing this thing 'cause I'm an adult also. Like, is it, is it cool? Is

Katie: is it cool? And so I moved out. I packed my Jetta.

Um,

Paddy: of course.

Katie: I packed my Jetta, I had my Gary Fisher bike on the roof. I had a pair of roller blades

Paddy: This is so [00:13:00] hardcore. 94. I

Katie: I know. Yeah. 90, yeah, 95. Now we're in 95. But yeah, so I packed my rollerblades. I had a tiny tv 'cause my mother was like, oh, what if you get lonely?

And so we, she got me a TV at Costco. Oh, love you mom. so I drive out with my boyfriend and you know, he did me a huge favor. This is part of the origin story, the legend. Is that the whole way across. The country. He was like, get ready for the brownest place you've ever seen.

Because he had come to, to New Mexico, to fly fish in college and whatnot. And so he thought he knew and he's like, brown, it's the desert. And you know, green when you're from the East coast is like, it's just everywhere. You know, you never know how the world could be so green,

Paddy: seriously, .

Katie: so he was preparing me the whole time and I was like, oh, it's gonna be like a wasteland.

I mean, I should have said already that I'd never set foot in the state of New Mexico before. I have no idea. So my, my boyfriend is like, it's gonna be the brownest thing ever. It's so brown. And we turned the [00:14:00] corner like off of I 40 we're making that last turn off the interstate and we got like 40 miles to Santa Fe.

And I was like, it's really green because it's all the evergreen, it's all the juniper and pinon.

Paddy: Yeah.

Katie: And I was like, this isn't that brown.

Paddy: Set against like the coolest, Red Rock and

like The skies in the desert

also

shut your face brown.

That's the

Katie: shut your face. Yeah, but

Paddy: face. Stupid old boyfriend.

Katie: so I was really pleasantly surprised. I never felt landscape shock of like, what is this? Instead I felt, immediately like it was the place I was supposed to be and

Paddy: why do you think that is? mean obviously the terrain is so different, but it, did it also feel like as the terrain was opening up,

were you kind of also opening up?

yeah, totally. Yes. I think in 2026 that the year we're in language, it would be like, it was a nervous system reset, you know?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Nice,

Katie: But at the time

Paddy: in 95, what are we saying?

Katie: 95. It's just like, oh. It was [00:15:00] like I could breathe, I could see a long way. I felt very small in a good way. Like the land was so big around me, like it enveloped me. mostly though, I just, what it came down to was that, I felt like Santa Fe was so original and like dusty and weird you know, growing up in the east and this was literally like what my parents would say.

We'd drive around like the neighborhoods, like looking at houses. My mom loved, loved to look at houses, and it was all about curb appeal.

Paddy: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Katie: oh, that house has really nice curb appeal, dear. Oh, look at that house. And it was how things look from the outside. And Santa Fe is like the opposite, there's some like, you know, fallen down adobe walls and they're beautiful, but they're sort of decrepit or there's like coyote fences. And I immediately sensed that like, it was not about curb appeal, but it was like about deep essence or like soul, right? Where it was like so much more itself than anywhere I'd been, that was based on like how things look.

It just felt very old and real [00:16:00] and like imperfect. And I, I kind of can't believe that I fell for it so fast and it just felt like I could be anyone here. That's

Paddy: Uh,

Katie: like. I

Paddy: and at 23, 24 years old, what a perfect time that is

Katie: yeah. So I felt like I just could be anything. and whatever that entailed.

And it didn't have to be, you know, like your shiny car right in the east, everyone's car is washed. In Santa Fe, everyone has dirty cars, so that when you lean against it, you're

Paddy: the patina of adventure.

Katie: Yes.

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Paddy: Not too long after you moved to Santa Fe, your grandfather sent you a

birthday card and in it he told you that quote, no moss will grow on you.

Now, knowing you as I do and having read your books as I have, I believe I know the answer here, but I have to ask, what did he mean and how did you take that?

Katie: he was quoting that, like, Moss doesn't grow in a rolling stone or whatever. And so he was just saying like, wow, you keep on going, you keep [00:17:00] on moving and changing. And, I felt like kind of like the way my step I felt when my stepdad, you know, ripped out that classified where I was like, oh, he totally gets me.

also I just was like, yes, this is true. And I didn't, you know, you're so young at that age that you're not thinking in terms of like five year ten year. You know, my internship at outside was supposed to be three months, and I really hope that I could push it to six months, but like, I never thought that I would still be here 31 years later.

Like never,

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do you think that there was a specific moment outside where you were like, ah, I found it.

Paddy: Yep. I want to be here. this is gonna be my place. This is gonna be my home.

Katie: Yeah, I mean it was more like a cumulative effect. It was like all the days I would go up my mountain here, like running or hiking up Atalaya, which is right out the door and it's like 9,000 feet. So it's about a 2000 foot climb. And my, the first summer I lived here before I really had a lot of friends.

Like I would go up that mountain [00:18:00] every day and that has since become like my practice and it dates back to that first summer in Santa Fe. So it's a really special, I spent a bunch of time on Rivers and, you know, have a lot of memories on the Rio Chama which is just about an hour and a half north of Santa Fe.

Also, I basically lived on my mountain bike and I would just do these massive bike rides every weekend. And I would come back to my little casita, and then I had, there was this laundromat down the street, right?

Because I didn't have laundry. And I would just, every day, every Saturday I'd go in for this epic ride. And then I would bring my, I would walk my laundry basket down to the laundromat and sit there and do my laundry. And like the people who owned it were like this old couple. And almost when you say, is there a moment, like almost, I see the laundromat because I knew I had community and it yet it was a very old like, family multi-generational place, Santa Fe.

And yet you had this like, awesome wilderness. So somehow it's like those the times I spent in the laundromat.

Paddy: it was like, I'm freaking independent. I'm doing what I wanna do. It [00:19:00] was like that moment of like, I'm not at Port Authority at 11:00 PM Like I went for a big ride, I'm pooped,

Yeah.

Katie: spin. It's like life on my terms

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One moment too is when I bought my house, in a very Santa Fe story, like I had been thinking about buying it, but then I was torn. 'cause it's like, should I go home? Should home being the East coast? Like should I go back and like do the normal thing and like marry an investment banker and like live in the suburbs?

I'm not kidding. That's like really what it was. And.

Paddy: I get it. I hear you.

Katie: And, I'd been looking at houses and nothing felt quite right. and then one day, this is like echoes of the Wall Street Journal story. I was reading the classifieds, and it just said, Santa Fe farmhouse in town, I called right that minute. I went to see the house, like that day and I called my mom and I was like, this is my house.

And I didn't know Steve then, but the owner who I was buying it from, it was for sale by owner.

And you know, she invited me over basically for like a [00:20:00] seance and, I mean, so Santa Fe, she's a puppeteer and she was moving across town and she had built the house by hand. And she had put like, love letters and recipes in the walls and like, affirmations to herself

and she said to me like, at this like dinner slash seance, she was like, now that you're committing to Santa Fe, like you will meet a man. And I kind of looked at my friend 'cause she, you know, she'd said and bring a couple friends. So I brought a couple of my friends who were also at outside and uh, we sort of were like giggling and, not three months later, like slow motion.

Steve's like walking across the field.

Paddy: I did, she, I can't believe she didn't mention the, the Frisbee,

Katie: I know exactly. She'd be like, and he would be carrying a Frisbee,

Paddy: Yes.

Well, and that's perfectly into my next question because like you, you bought your

home there, you met your husband in this

very like sparkly romantic comedy moment

that happened at an ultimate Frisbee

game where the seas, the crowd parted and there Steve was.

Katie: Steve,

Paddy: You

have two, [00:21:00] two daughters. You raise them there.

So for somebody who doesn't grow moss, you sure as hell put down

some pretty deep roots.

So why?

Katie: Yeah, that is such a good point. Um, just, Santa Fe's, there's no better place that I could think of to go. I mean, it has everything we need in terms of outdoors. The culture is so deep and strong. we've so much history here. the Native American influence, like, we would go up to Taos on Christmas day and see the deer dance.

you know, we would go to Bandelier, um, national Monument and climb through the cliff dwellings. And this was just like on a normal Saturday, be like, what do you wanna do? Let's go to San Coi. and so it was all there and it, and none of it, felt. Contrived.

we had really put down roots and, developed amazing friendships.

like we have a pod of families, that we are raising our kids together and we're raising them outdoors. Like I did a [00:22:00] column for outside for, I don't know, like 10 years or 11 years, called Raising Rippers. And it's like, I wanna do a little post now and be like, ripper raised check. You know, because it's like, we freaking did it.

Well, tons of folks do the outdoor town thing, and mostly those folks do it for only a season of their life.

Paddy: you know, the line is, I'm just gonna do this for a little

bit and I'm gonna quote, figure it out

and then I'm gonna go back home and I'm gonna start my life.

I know I had that plan it didn't happen for me. So how did you really not return to New Jersey?

Are you still quote, figuring it out, out there, or have you indeed figured it out?

Katie: yeah. Figured it out. We're here.

Paddy: , What have you figured out?

Katie: there we're, this is it. This is where we live, I may spend time other places 'cause I'm feeling the call to do teaching but I mean, it's hard to think about leaving like our friends are, our family

Paddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

Katie: and Santa [00:23:00] Fe I've grown up here

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PADDYO VO:

More from writer, runner, and human of zen, Katie Arnold, after the break.

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Paddy: When I was going over the research for our chat and thinking of how you and I could talk in a new way, because you've been on the

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Paddy: I first thought, okay, cool. I'm gonna ask about Katie, the athlete, and then I'm gonna ask about Katie, the writer.

And then I immediately thought, Paddy, you ignorant doofus. I'm surprised you can even chew gum and put on pants at the same time, because I don't know if there actually is a difference

between those two things. Am

I right?

Katie: Paddy, this is why we get along so well. That is like, they are one in the same. Yes. One in the same, not one, not two.

Paddy: With your writing and your running, you've described a link between movement and creativity

and how not just being in nature. Inspires you,

but navigating [00:24:00] through it and with it

inspires you. Now, for a runner like me, who mostly just sounds like an asthmatic, walrus, when I plod along any trail, kind of get what you mean, but

I kind of don't.

So I want to dig into this. Can you describe a moment out on your favorite

trail when you felt this type of connection of body and imagination?

Katie: Yeah, so it happens a lot. the best way I can describe it is like you disappear like your small self, and this is actually the book I'm writing right now, but it's like your small self vanishes you are in the slipstream of some energy on the mountain and it's like carrying you upward you yourself are not doing the work, the small work.

Like you are part of this bigger energy. And as you're running the repetitive motion of your feet and your arms, like, I really think that I run a lot with my arms. , The repetitive motion that's making is like. It's spinning the imagination in my mind. And so I'm creating this energy and this, [00:25:00] imagination.

but also I'm receiving it, right? Like I'm receiving it from the trees and the landscape that I've known for now, 31 years. And the ravens and the specific smell, like just the other day I was running on a trail that I don't normally get on until like April, because it's low, but it's shady.

And so it's normally like snowy, you know, in a normal year. but I love it. so I went out and, and it was a little too warm and I had my dog, so I was like, I better run on the shady trail because there's water. It runs along. The creek for, you know, eight miles and I'm running. And it was the combination of the smell of like the ponderosas waking up and the damp earth, right?

Of having been under snow or under ice, and then the creek, and it was the sounds. So it's all your senses, it's very sensory experience, it's all your senses. And then it was memory on top of that of like, how many times have I run this trail and how many, different seasons of my life when I was like at the peak of my ultra running and training all the time when I was new to Santa Fe.

You know, it was kind of all those [00:26:00] stages are part of me and they live in me. And then when you go out on a trail, on a day like that, they come back to you. It's like unlocking parts of your memory, and then that opens the doorway into like.

Oh, maybe I'm gonna write about that. being a writer, I think always in terms of stories, so a memory, like just a flashing memory that I have on a trail could become a chapter in the book I'm writing. It's sort of this radical openness.

You're just, you're like this giant pore, and like taking things in.

Paddy: that's

Katie: that gross?

Paddy: no, I, I mean, no, I think that's actually like very descriptive and cool. Is that gross? I don't know. Maybe I haven't decided yet.

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Katie: It can happen on any trail, right? And I know all the trails, like every trail, like the back of my hand, but it doesn't always happen because sometimes you go into a run like we always do, you know, in life with like a to-do list in your brain or your voice, your narrative, your narrator voice being like, God, you're slow today, or you've really slowed down, or, you know, all the negatives get on top of [00:27:00] you.

Paddy: Remember that weird thing you did homecoming, sophomore

Katie: yeah,

Paddy: of high school?

Katie: you suck. Um, no, but yeah, so it's always available in the wilderness. it's just that we don't come in that receiving mode. And so I think of it as like switching into the receive mode. Like I pretend there's like a switch on my arm.

Paddy: was just gonna ask like, how do you get outta your way? Do you seriously physically like

Katie: uh, it's like. I just am pointing to like my bicep, I feel like there's like a switch and I'm just like, click. And then it's receive. And it's like, okay, whatever happened, you know, five minutes ago or yesterday or in sophomore year is done right now and I'm just in receive. So likeAll the trails in Santa Fe have that for me. They have so much memory. but I would say the Windsor Trail because , it's like you get you right into the forest and there's water, so you have that, Sort of like auditory, like water sound that

Paddy: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katie: and then you have these big trees and they smell incredible.

and it feels a little bit wild. Like [00:28:00] it feels like wilderness pretty soon. But then I love trails up high on the mountain. I love to get above tree line and that's, you know, 20 minutes drive from my house. And so it's just a matter of like being in that receive mode. 'cause we can go out into the day a lot of days and just be like, I've been here, done that.

Oh, this trail again. Like, you know, and you just bring all your crap with you.

Paddy: or you're like, I, I, I got 30 minutes and I need to red line it 'cause I'm trying to

do X, y, and Z or whatever. Yeah. And you like, forget that. It's like, no, this is actually supposed to be fun.

Katie: yeah.

Paddy: Well,

Katie: me, yeah, that's, you redlining it Paddy. My redlining days might be, well never say never,

Paddy: I don't

know. I mean, I, I think I red line like tying my shoes, so

Katie: I red line when I fall on my cross country

Paddy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That happens to me a lot. do you think there's any difference between pushing your body and pushing your creativity?

Katie: I kind of think of it not as pushing, but as like, being pulled.

Paddy: Oh,

Katie: like I'm not like.

Paddy: I love the way that you think. What I'm such, sometimes I, I hear you talk and I'm like, that's so amazing. Also, you're such an idiot. O'Connell. [00:29:00] pull. You moron.

It's a

Katie: a Paddy. It's been a pull the whole time. No, I mean the, the pull, when you are drawn towards something, then you're in that more receiving mind. But yes, do I, when you push like it is pushing, like, and it sometimes is really nice to have something to work with, like a slope. I really like to run uphill because you can't go all out.

You have to just like be humble and like work with the slope. And so you are pushing against the rhythm of the mountain. but I find that when my imagination and my body are firing best, I'm not pushing, I am receiving or I'm like being pulled towards something.

Paddy: It's about not me, , flexing me, but having a relationship with the mountain I don't know, maybe that sounds really out there, but it's like me and the mountain, not just me on the mountain. And so it's like, what are the mountain?

Katie: Like what am I doing today with the mountain? Oh, today I'm suffering because I have allergies and like my lung capacity feels like it's nothing. Okay, well then I'm just gonna like, ease into it. And when I run, from a [00:30:00] relaxed place, like both in my mind and my body, like, I can be going slowly and feel like I am floating.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: are you going straight from feeling that connection on

trail to the pen and paper to the

keyboard?

Katie: yeah, ideally, and I should say like, I'm not running, I'm running maybe three days a week. I have some bone on bone arthritis from this accident I had in my knee. So my running has shifted immensely, and that has been a process of like three years of letting go.

and that's been incredible and also difficult, but like, so today I went for a run and I came back and I knew we were gonna be talking, but I had about two hours. So like, what do I do? I have to shower because the allergies are so bad. So it's like I do a quick shower and then I get something to eat and I sit at my keyboard and when I sit down, I feel like I'm so excited to sit down because I've just created all this energy in my body and now I'm gonna like put it on the keyboard.

Paddy: You alluded to this a, a second ago, and I also read something recently, like a post of yours that, you [00:31:00] know, it, it sounds like you're maybe taking the foot off of the intensity

gas pedal a little bit

in your running.

and you said something along the lines of, you used to think that like a five mile run

didn't really count because it like, wasn't painful or long enough,

you know, you weren't like, Yeah.

you weren't like pushing hard enough, but now you're thinking, you know, a jog is a jog is a jog.

Katie: Yes.

Paddy: are you concerned at all or, like you said, you've had this kind of hard three year process of maybe metering down on the intensity of your running. Was part of that difficulty because you thought, if I am not pushing my body,

I'm not gonna be able to like be as creative

Katie: Yeah. I think there was definitely some of that, both conscious and, subconscious of worry. and part of it, there was a reality to it of like. when you don't have your feet on the ground, I mean, it works when I ride my bike in a different way. When I ride my bike, I get that really childlike, sort of like zany 8-year-old vibe.

That's super good for your [00:32:00] creativity, but you're, you're not getting that like tactile like, feedback from the earth. And so a lot of times with biking, if you're not in that like, child mode, you then just feel like you're like a cyclist cranking out the RPMs or the power meter

Paddy: Or like, I'm just trying to get from the trailhead

to the top of this thing so I can start the fun.

Katie: So, so I was always like staying super active and I always do, but I wasn't getting that sort of runner's high. That translated into my writing. I haven't really linked the two, but it's possible that I was stuck on this. How to disappear book because, I wasn't doing that, but I think more to the point, I was not done disappearing.

You know, like I was still living the books lessons and I couldn't, write about it, like I was still in the middle of living it. but I saw like this amazing trail runner. Her name's Megan, she lives in Santa Fe. I think her last name's Eckert. She's won like Bob's Big Backyard Ultra.

Like she's incredible. She's a school teacher in town, early thirties. [00:33:00] She's kind of like the big shot runner in Santa Fe right now. And we, I passed her that day that I said I was on that, Creek Trail. I was coming down and she was going up and I saw her and I was like, are you Megan?

And, and she's like, yeah. I'm like, I'm Katie. And we had this total moment and I was like, what are you training for? And she's like, I've got a hundred mile in a few weeks in New Zealand. And she's like, what are you training for? And I was like, I'm not, like, I'm not, I'm training for creativity or I'm training just to live.

and I was like, yeah, I, I pretty much can just do six miles and then it really hurts. and she sort of had this sad look and she's like, is there anything they can do? And I was like, I mean the usual, like invasive stuff, but um, more I was just like, I've gotten to that point where I'm just so grateful when I can do it, you know, that I have an hour and that it's like I can have an hour of like writing and when I run and like writing in my body and then coming back and putting it in and having that feedback.

And then the other days it's like, ride my bike or ski up the mountain. You know? I find ways.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: you have this extensive resume of mind body connection,

right? Like [00:34:00] you've written two books about it,

specifically where, running helped you deal with the grief

of losing your father, and where your mind and your zen

practice helped you deal with actually promoting healing within your body when

you had that terrible river accident.

So in a time like now, are you calling upon those lessons from those moments in your life?

Katie: . Yeah, definitely. I mean, just that presence with like, this is what I can do today and this is what my body feels like doing today and being just really grateful for it. So gratitude's, a big part of flow is like just feeling that gratitude for what you're able to do in this moment. And so, you just stop looking at the huge picture of like, I'm training for this, and everything has to go as planned. It's honestly really freeing. and I stopped even trying to figure out why my, my knee hurts more sometimes than others. Like if my activities are the same, you know, it's like inflammation in my body from allergies.

It's this, it's that, it's gluten. And then at a certain [00:35:00] point you're just like, well, I don't need to figure it out. It's just like, today it feels this way, and tomorrow it's gonna, you know, it's like that zen practice of like, everything changes. Nothing is permanent. So, you know, we can get so in our heads with trying to diagnose our stuff, and you just be like, actually just meet today.

Like today, oh God, I feel like going up for the mountain on a run. Like, let's do it. And so I'm always listening to my body, , and my heart, which is like, oh, for some reason I'm picturing myself running down the mountain. That means it's time to go, you know? And then other days it's like. Oh no. Like I'm just walking the dog.

I'm taking the dogs for a hike.

Paddy: Well, I, I know that you have been practicing Zen for many, many years now. and in that is the practice of non-attachment

and resistance to ego driven

Katie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Paddy: But you're also the person who kicked down the door at outside and said, you're gonna hire me. You're also the person who

pointed the life cannon from the

east coast to Santa Fe and built this [00:36:00] life like you

are a go-getter,

Right.

Are there ever days where even within this zen practice, you're just like, mother, what the f stupid knee.

Like, I'm gonna, pound you into a submission

here, I don't care If my patella pops off

my leg like a champagne cork, I'm just gonna do this.

Or are you so into this zen practice of yours,

That, you don't get like that? Like, resentment isn't a thing.

Katie: No, of course I have resentment and of course I have days when I'm like fricking a, like when I saw that woman after, I like basked in our mutual like love for the sport of running and like our strength and like, you know, older women to younger women. And then I ran down the trail. I was like, fricking I would love to run a hundred miles.

Like, I would love to train for that. I would love to be able to do that. So yeah, you have resentments. And I think that the thing with my zen training, someone asked me this the other day 'cause like, I've not been practicing, I've not been meditating, you know, it's been such a distracting, like, god awful [00:37:00] time in like the world and the events and news , and he was like, how are you handling this in your zen practice?

And I was like, actually it's pretty shoddy right now. But I believe really deeply that my zen practice is just in me. It's so deep in me that like it's there even if it's dormant. And so what I'm practicing right now is just that like. You know, just this, just this, this moment, like what I can do right now.

Really cool. Just meet each day as it is and also just work hard every day.

You know, it's not like people hear Zen and they're like, oh, you're so chill. You know? But as you pointed out, I am a go-getter. It's just like, you go, you go get in the moment for the thing in that moment, you're not fixated on these giant goals, you know, five years down the road or whatever.

You're just making true effort in each moment.

Paddy: Is there something about where you live that is helpful

for that? Like, you know, obviously Zen Buddhism, has its roots in a much different place

in the world, but Santa Fe is no stranger to,

you know, the spiritual seekers.

And I have to imagine [00:38:00] like the Katie who never left Manhattan trying to practice Zen,

you know, it would be looking a little bit different. Like if I was into Zen and still living in Chicago, I mean, you know, after a bear game, that would be pretty, you know, tough. Yeah. You

Katie: I'd be walking.

Paddy: bears. I'm just gonna practice that non-attachment though, guy, you know, like that,

probably would look a lot different.

So like what is it about where you live that is helpful for that?

Katie: Oh, I mean, I mean, I think it goes back to what we said originally that Santa Fe is just so itself, that it gives you permission to be yourself. And that's one of the biggest things in Zen it's just be yourself. Like, just be your authentic self. And so that initially just that feeling I had of like, I can be anything here.

Um, there's a great Georgia O'Keeffe you know, who of course like lived and, and she died in Santa Fe and she painted north of here. And, you know, she's part of the New Mexico mystique though, you know, of course, uh, artists predated her, you know, by hundreds and hundreds of years here. But there's a great quote that I keep above, my bulletin board and it was, goes [00:39:00] something like this, like I didn't think anyone would care about my painting, so that's why I did it.

And, um. And it's like, that says it all right, because she ended up being world famous for her painting.

Paddy: Right.

Katie: That's why she started painting 'cause she wanted to do the thing that no one was paying attention to. So that's how I feel. There's so much freedom here in Santa Fe. People aren't paying attention.

And then there is the spiritual community. And I happen to meet, like one of my best friends here in Santa Fe and she lived in New Mexico in Santa Fe for many years. Natalie Goldberg, who's a really famous writer and has written many books on writing. And I, in a very Santa Fe like fortuitous way met her and we became really close friends and, We would go hiking, you know, once a week. And this is when one of my daughters was tiny. And you know, we would go up the mountain together and we'd be talking about writing and my dad was dying and babies, but we were also really talking about Zen, right? And so, that kind of was an entryway for me.

You know, there's the Ukiah Zen Center here in Santa Fe and [00:40:00] McLoud Zen Center. And I practice and have, you know, given talks at both. And so it is a great community. I'm definitely a little bit more on the rogue Zen side, like where I don't go to

Paddy: That

Katie: sittings as my, yeah, I'm the Rolling Stone

Paddy: of course.

Katie: Um, but it's like a foundational practice here and you feel it like, and I think just too, again, because Santa Fe is so itself, and that's such a zen expression,

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: Do you think that Santa Fe has made you better writer?

Katie: Oh, a hundred percent.

Paddy: How?

Katie: I mean, well I, first of all, I did a lot of writing before I moved to Santa Fe, but you know, it was like college term paper. It was like lit, you know, essays about literature and you know, I wrote a lot short stories in New Jersey, when I was a kid. And that was like, I was in my like private investigator mode where like you're trying to be like Harriet the spy and sleuth out things that like find mysteries that don't exist.

And it's really like, I was trying to figure out the story of my life, like why I had ended up in New Jersey and my [00:41:00] parents got divorced and remarried and whatnot. So I don't really have anything to compare it to. 'cause my life as a writer has taken place in New Mexico.

I mean, certainly being a kid and super curious kid and a reader in New Jersey and the, the daughter of a photographer who was super curious in the world. Like very foundational to my writing. But then in New Mexico, it's just, there's so much horizon. Like it's that feeling like you can write about anything.

And also no one's like that. George O'Keefe. No one's really watching. Like I'm not in New York where there's like a liter, you know, it's like a literary hotbed. We have great writers here in Santa Fe and I'm friends with them, a lot of them, but it's not, um, so incestuous, right? It's not that like, New York kind of everyone's

Paddy: Like looking over your shoulder, kind of like seeing what you're doing and you have to like kind of flaunt. It's like, oh, I can actually just write to actually write, not like write to self-promote.

Katie: yeah. And you can just be wild out here. Like, I think that's the thing. I'm like this rebel little bit and, you know, New York was too expected of me, you know, when I [00:42:00] moved out here, my stepfather literally said, I mean, again, let's just fra frame it. It was 1995. But he is like, I guess you're not gonna marry the investment banker.

I was like, I never thought of that. so Santa Fe just felt like on the edge, it felt a little wild, unpredictable. And It still does.

PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE

Paddy: when you look at your home today, the community, the peaks, the open sky, the terrain, the town, what continues to. Intrigue and inspire you. What is Santa Fe teaching you or showing you about the story of your life that you're still writing?

Katie: Oh, such a good one. just to live in the questions, that's a famous quote by Rilke , in his letters to a young poet where he is like, I would like to beg you, you know, do not try to answer the questions. I'm paraphrasing. Like, live the questions, live your way.

And someday you might find yourself living into the answers. Santa Fe is no better. There's no better place to just live in the questions, because, none of our lives are set, right? There's unpredictability [00:43:00] all the time. But Santa Fe just has that like, it's both soft, right?

Like it's, it's a nurturing place, but it's hard, like there's hard edges like drought, you know, sun, the high altitude. And so it's that perfect combination of just like. Testing me and then like holding me.

MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Paddy: It is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without

Katie: Um, double sleeping bag.

We've had it a long time. And it's a really interesting choice for me because I can't do double anything.

Like put me on a double kayak with Steve. We're definitely getting divorced. I would never get on a double a tandem bike with him in a million years. Like we are not tandem people, but the double sleeping bag is my favorite piece of gear because I sleep cold. He's a furnace. So it's like having like a giant hot water bottle in my bag with me. It's my favorite. Steve, if you're listening, we might need to upgrade.

Paddy: you are a giant hot water bottle.

Katie: [00:44:00] I'm a giant pore And you are a hot water bottle.

Paddy: My God. I love that. Best outdoor snack.

Katie: oh. This one is interesting. Okay. I'm gonna have to say this has been my go-to for a long time now. The Unreal chocolate and coconut bars.

Paddy: Oh, I dunno. Those

Katie: Oh, they're like little, like tiny, you know, like bite size or two bites and it's dark chocolate. It's bas,

Paddy: can't be enough. Come on.

Katie: I mean it's 60. Yeah, it is enough. I mean, when you're running, not as far as I am.

Is that what you meant? Like that kind of

Paddy: Sure. Yeah, totally.

Katie: Yeah, I'll put that in my pocket. it's like a mounds, but good for you.

Paddy: Uh, okay.

Okay.

Katie: star chocolate and coconut. And the coconut has a lot of fat. Good fat

Paddy: So a little fuel, a little like candy fuel up on the

Katie: candy fuel. Yeah. Little mounds, almond joy kind of situation.

Paddy: What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

Katie: Don't ever be a chairlift guy. Okay. And

Paddy: Oh, what?

Katie: I mean the guy on the chairlift who is like the expert on the mountain he's the expert on the weather that's coming [00:45:00] in. He's read the forecast, he's skied every, you know, he probably hasn't, but he's the chairlift guy.

He's the mansplainer on the chairlift.

Paddy: I was gonna say, are you just like, don't be a mansplaining skier?

Katie: Don't be a mansplainer on the chairlift. 'cause it's a special breed. Right? 'cause you're a captive audience when you're on the chairlift with this guy and he's the kind of guy who asks you questions because he already knows the answer

Paddy: totally. Totally. It's not even really like a question, you know, it's

more of like an opinion. It's like, do you, uh, do you like to ski this trail or do you ski this much better, more difficult,

super hairy line than only really great skiers can ski

Katie: Exactly. Or like a couple weeks ago when, you know, we're so starved for snow in the West. And I was like, yeah, I've seen some snow in the forecast. And you're kind of just like willing it to be so like you're just a little bit off optimism. Please, please. And he's like, and this guy next to me is like, well, I've looked at the forecast.

There's nothing for 10 or 12 days. And I'm like, did you need to say that? You didn't. You just didn't. Don't be the chairlift guy.

Paddy: You know what I, I do like a, [00:46:00] about a lot of our, hottest outdoor hot

takes is a lot of it tends to be people just saying, Hey, when you go outside, don't be a complete ass hat.

Katie: Yeah. Just don't be an asshole. Yeah, exactly. That's what it boils down to.

Paddy: MUSIC IN THE CLEAR FOR A BEAT

Katie Arnold is an award winning writer, runner, flow state zen expert, and bonafide Santa Fe legend. She's working on a new book called "How To Disappear: A Writers guide to flow." That's a working title. You can keep tabs on when that comes out by following Katie on Instagram at Katie Arnold and by visiting her website  Katie Arnold dot net. There you'll also find Katie's events and retreats,  and links to her books, Running Home and Brief Flashings in the Phenomenal World. You should read them, they are great. I also recommend  subscribing to Katie's Substack, called Work in Process for her wonderful weekly essays.

Katie also [00:47:00] wanted to let you all know that she has a Flow Camp coming up in late April  in Portugal with her pal and fellow writer slash somatic coach slash yoga guru, Kelly Burns. You can learn more about that camp at Kelly Burns dot net Slash Portugal underscore Retreat.

  And don't forget that we are on Youtube.  So fire up your interwebz and watch video episodes of the chats your ears have loved to listen to. Check us out at Outside Podcast 1 on YouTube.

And, remember that we want to hear from you. Sooo, email your pod reactions, guest nominations, your answer to New Mexico's official state question "you wan't red or green on that?", and since we're planning an upcoming Mailbag episode any podcast related questions to Outside Podcast At Outside Inc Dot Com.

The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Paddy O'Connell. But you can [00:48:00] call me PaddyO. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard, Micah "I am the flow state chile con carne" Abrams. Music and Sound Design by Robbie Carver. Booking and research by Jeanette Courts.

The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside Plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member yourself at Outside Online Dot Com Slash Pod Plus.